2 points:

1) Argument by anecdote doesn't accomplish much.

2)This "sovereign nation" argument, which you've cited before, is silly. All states that are not colonized or dominated by another state are, by definition, sovereign. If violations of sovereignty were grounds for making a war unjust, there could never be a just war between two or more countries (excluding those in the dominated/colonized category). This would, for example, make both World Wars as well as the war in afganistan unjust. Presumably you and Charles Drum are making an argument against preventive war. If so, you should say so.

blah, blah, blah. i don't think i would really call that an anecdote, jk.

as for point two, preventive war is still war and war is generally not good, no? anyway, too tired to argue this right now.

i was just making a statement that more people should be against bush and those were two quotes that i liked. sheesh!

While I agree with your original post, Tien, we need to be careful not to gloat about republicans getting fed up with Shrub. And I wouldn't exactly say you were gloating -- I'm just sayin'. Don't want to upset those republicans who are planning on voting for Kerry, do we? ;)

I'm getting excessively sickened by the path everything has taken lately. Abductions and beheading is way beyond anything anyone could consider acceptable as a cost of war. While I'm generally a non-violent person, the choice of the "rebels" to use these tactics has, at times, enraged me to the point where I'd just love to get medieval on their ass.

On the topic of this post, I think it is a conspiracy that both people have the name Charlie/Charles. I also find it amusing that the guy from California is the "sophisticated" Charles, while the guy from Pennsylvania is the Charlie. I also bet that Charlie in PA really goes by Chuck (Chuck Buck), and would not be surprised if Charles goes by Chaz.

It shouldnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that hate breeds hate and that hatred towards the US would diminish or sieze to exits when oppresed. Im not a US citizen (Im a swede) but it hurts me to see that your non-elected president steers the world in a medival direction and building the wall between you and the arab/islamic world even higher. One cold war is one too much, we dont need to go there again! What more, George W's methods is not only bad for the citizens of the US - his politics and the politics of US corps affects the rest of the western world in such an extend that we all should get a vote!!

Bless you all. regards /jens